Dispute Should this feedback Captin03 left for Sageofeq be removed?

[Redbot]

Username(s) of the accused

Captin03

This is an official feedback dispute, sponsored by the Ducat shop. After 7 days the votes will be tallied and the most popular judgement upheld. Official feedback rules are found here.

@Sageofeq is disputing feedback left by @Captin03
Here is a link to the feedback. Note that this link may not work for non-moderators due to the user's privacy settings.

It reads:

"Fraudulent Kronos"
"I left a positive review on the date of purchase. 6 of 9 kronos have been removed from my account. At first I just thought it was the missing Krono type bug so I opened a service ticket and they told me the missing Kronos have been removed from the game due to being fraudulent. The GM did not give them back but says that they will review further. I will update my review once I get this resolved."

If you are a moderator or staff please do not vote or comment.

 

[Captin03]

@Captin03

Have you had any dialogue with Sage after purchase?

Yes we have a private message discussion going. He reached out to me after I changed my review to neutral explaining what had happened. If I am allowed to add that discussion here that would help.

 

[bractos45]

I'll wait for a bit more information before casting a vote. But:

The only time I've seen (literally me personally) DB straight up "delete" Kronos is when whoever bought them from DB, did a chargeback against DB. (Causes deletion of the Kronos and an automatic Ban for the EQ account, this prevents people from buying a ton of Kronos, handing them off to an alt account, and then conducting a chargeback; obviously stupid rare thing to have happen.) I can't imagine Sage is purchasing them for $18 a pop to sell them here for $10. With the plat dupes that was happening on Oakwynd; my mind thinks that someone purchased X amount of Kronos, put them on the Bazaar for Y amount of plat; saw the surge of Krono prices and felt they got ripped off and did a chargeback after they were sold. As DK said, Kronos move quickly. Hard to imagine Sage is at fault though.

I'm following the Krono seller's lead here though; so I'll wait for more info.

Sorry this happened, but sounds like it'll get fixed!! Best of luck!!

EDIT: (Also, hope your break was good @Redbot !!!)

 

[Captin03]

I’m not really sure how I can screen shot that and I never asked sage for a refund. I had 0 on the account when I purchased and I had not used or done any trades. So it was very clear when I petitioned the issue. After losing the krono a review change from positive to neutral explaining the situation seemed fair in my mind. As buyers would like to know if sellers kronos are disappearing after the transaction.

 

[Captin03]

 

[Captin03]

As far as the petition my krono count changed from 9 to 3 without a message or a reason. I figured it was a bug when I opened a support ticket. I'm also not arguing that I got krono outside of proper channels. With that being said if people are selling kronos that are disappearing. is that not exactly what the review process is for? If I see one seller has had repeat issues and another hasn't that would help me decide who to buy from. Suppressing this information seems very anti buyer. Is this vote system just a way for sellers to prevent any review that is not positive. Even if the information is true?

 

[Captin03]

If I got a ban for buying krono I would have had no questions or posted a review. This is a bit different in my opinion but I guess the system is more for sellers to pad their reviews and not for buyers to express being sold kronos that react closer to a chargeback.

 

[bractos45]

If I got a ban for buying krono I would have had no questions or posted a review. This is a bit different in my opinion but I guess the system is more for sellers to pad their reviews and not for buyers to express being sold kronos that react closer to a chargeback.

It's not a system for sellers to pad their reviews. It's a system to give legitimate feedback towards the responsibility of sellers and buyers. If Sage had somehow "conned" you out of x6 Kronos, then absolutely negative / neutral feedback is warranted. RMT in EQ always has an inherent risk involved due to the 3rd variable; Darkpaw, but correlation doesn't equal causation.

I think you got unlucky, and if I were in your situation, I would've reached out to Sage first before anything else. But because you were unlucky and got burned by Darkpaw, you can't throw the responsibility towards a seller who did everything correct.

Voted to remove feedback. Again though, sorry this happened to you; it is an unfortunate risk of buying Kronos, but luckily, it's extremely rare for Darkpaw to delete Kronos.

 

[Seaox]

The neutral vs negative feedback semantics seems irrelevant here, let's be real. Not only the title, but the content of the feedback, is going to be interpreted as a negative for any potential buyer, that should be obvious.
I definitely think the situation warrants a understanding discussion between buyer and seller. The buyer has proof from the discussions with darkpaw support that krono was removed. That would be a good place to start a discussion of maybe a future discount or be able to work SOMETHING out together since neither party is at fault.
Now, if this discussion was prompted by the buyer, and the seller refused to make any kind of concession whatsoever, just gave a "too bad so sad" response, well, some people here will even defend that, but I would defend the ability to leave neutral or negative feedback about THAT particular point at the very least, because it warns future buyers that IF anything goes south, this seller will not share any burden to come up with a reasonable solution afterward, you're on your own. That is in fact useful information and is absolutely fair game in my opinion.
That is NOT what happened here though. Unless I'm missing something there was no attempt to reach a reasonable solution, just "neutral" (but reality negative all the same) feedback on a situation we don't necessarily have reason to believe was the seller's fault. If the seller bought a bunch of krono to re-sell and then did a chargeback after selling, we'd see a number of instances like this, not just one, and that would definitely give us reason to believe the seller is at fault.
As it stands I'm voting to remove the feedback. This isn't some mass populated site like amazon, it's a bit more tight knit, we should be more thoughtful when leaving critical feedback in my opinion. At the very least, you should be giving the seller the benefit of the doubt and try to work it out with them first, if they refuse to do anything with you, THEN some type of more critical feedback becomes clearly justifiable.

 

[Sageofeq]

I recently hit the top 10 Trader's list on EC Tunnel. The last thing I wanted was a stain on my name as a seller, connected to "fraud"...a fraudulent seller...after THOUSANDS of flawless transactions. It was not easy for me to get to where I am today. I've worked in good faith since 2017.

I feel this feedback is punishing me for the terrible business practices of Darkpaw Games, something that is completely out of my control. I've shown no vindictiveness here. I didn't accuse the user of lying, or change my old feedback in retaliation. Please consider my reasoning.

I sympathize with the seller's problems. I've had to deal with terrible arbitration on the part of Darkpaw in the past, as most people like me certainly have as well. As a company, Darkpaw is noncommunicative, unresponsive, and sometimes incompetent or self-sabotaging. Every single one of us is aware of the destruction of EQ's economies at present due to the negligence and incompetence surrounding the recent plat dupe, which they are censoring on their official channels and trying to sweep under the rug.

With this company's hidden intentions and meanings regarding such issues, it's often impossible to know why "6 out of 9" krono were flagged "fraudulent." Why only 6 out of 9? Why only this one trade, and none of the trades I've done before or since. Am I responsible for the poor business decisions and practices of Darkpaw Games too? As stated, I've done this since 2017, and I've never had a single krono I've bought or sold be flagged as "fraudulent." I don't even know what it means. No seller on the tunnel wants this word connected with their reputation lightly, and I don't believe it is earned. And by extension, should we also start making sellers here responsible for what happens on buyer's accounts post-sale for every krono purchase, and also responsible for the nebulous arbitrations and terrible business practices of Darkpaw Games?

This neutral/negative feedback was left about a month ago. The seller said he would update his "feedback" when he knew more. During that month he didn't contact me once or update the feedback. I just became aware of it 72 hours ago, and therefore opened up this dispute with my ducats because I feel the feedback is unearned.

I don't claim to be perfect. Nobody is. I make mistakes. I get upset. We are all human here. But I believe my record shows that I act in good faith. I have never engaged in fraud. I don't even know what a fraudulent krono is, or how such a krono is created or labeled such.

It's hard to know the best solution in every situation. Do I owe this player another 6 krono because Darkpaw Games took them away and labeled them "fraudulent"? If so, does that mean I am responsible for what happens to every krono I sell after a transaction is successful? Am I also responsible for the entire lifespan and history of every krono I interact with? It's an impossible onus to place upon a seller. Would I have reimbursed this player if they had bothered to contact me once in the past month and tell me what was going on? Possibly. But I'm not willing to do so now. They put the word "fraud" next to my name as a seller, without even bothering to reach out to me. That was not in good form and faith by my own standards and reckoning.

 

[Sageofeq]

As a side note, I am continuing to dialogue with the player, and see if we can resolve the matter privately. I absolutely do not believe I owe a player the krono in this situation, and that's the primary reason I created this feedback poll. I honestly and legitimately want to know what the community thinks the responsibility of sellers is here on EC Tunnel regarding such a situation.

 

[Drognir]

As a side note, I am continuing to dialogue with the player, and see if we can resolve the matter privately. I absolutely do not believe I owe a player the krono in this situation, and that's the primary reason I created this feedback poll. I honestly and legitimately want to know what the community thinks the responsibility of sellers is here on EC Tunnel regarding such a situation.

You are not obligated to issue any Krono to the customer under these circumstances. As a seller, your responsibility is to deliver the advertised products or services and honor any stated refund policy. You have fulfilled the product delivery in good faith. Unless there is an overlooked refund policy requiring action on your part, you need not offer a refund.

While unfortunate for the buyer, and understandable from personal experience, the situation is beyond your control. If the Krono was previously involved in any malpractice, it was not by your doing, and the customer's misfortune is due to circumstance, not your misconduct.

That being said, I do hope for a positive outcome for the customer, but they are at the mercy of Darkpaw and their policies.

 

[Captin03]

We keep coming back to how I reached out to Sage was inappropriate. If only I had done it a different way everything would have been puppy dogs and rainbows. As a buyer I am not as familiar with how sellers would like for me to do things on this site. Most sellers on other systems react to their reviews. We can put the blame on me, but I would argue that Sage not only had a chance to connect with me he did. As soon as he saw my review his reaction was you have some explaining to do for writing a review, but really no big deal I will just contest it anyways. Now could he have said oh man that is a bummer that happened to you. I would like to talk this out and have you change my review back to positive. Sure he could have but what incentives does he have to do that when he can just contest a review and have it taken down.

Really I am happy I posted this review because I now know that it is a seller controlled review system. I did always find it fishy that most sellers have zero neutral or negative reviews. This has opened my eyes to how things currently work. This is where everyone says it is a vote system, a good old democracy. On the surface this is true and I was going to quote some things Diamond said here but all of his comments were removed. I am guessing some of the things he said did not fit the narrative. So we will skip that.

A vote system seems fair until you think about who has incentive to use it as a collective. Seller's profit can be negatively affected by reviews. This was another Diamond quote he removed. This causes sellers to vote together to have them removed. Now not all because then people would question things. So the most egregious reviews are of course upheld. As a buyer the only reason you are reading the contested reviews is for the fun of seeing what people contest.

So as the sellers dogpile on me and I prepare to take the L. I can say that I am happy to know the truth of the review system for a relatively small loss. In the past I advocated for this site when anyone asked about getting kronos. I will no longer be able to do that in good faith as I do not believe we can trust in the review system.

 

[bractos45]

So as the sellers dogpile on me and I prepare to take the L. I can say that I am happy to know the truth of the review system for a relatively small loss. In the past I advocated for this site when anyone asked about getting kronos. I will no longer be able to do that in good faith as I do not believe we can trust in the review system.

I'm more of a buyer, than a seller now.

The fact you're ignoring the influence that Darkpaw has is what you're forgetting. Answer this:

Did you pay for said Krono in a timely manner? Yes / No
Did seller deliver correct amount of Krono's in a timely manner? Yes / No

It's the fact you claimed that what he did was "fraudulent" is why we're defending him. Fraudulent implies that the answer to the second question is "No". You got burned on $60 by Darkpaw; not by anything the seller did.

EDIT: If you purchase something from a store, and someone comes by and steals it the next day, it's not the stores fault. You don't get to call them fraudulent because of it.
2nd EDIT: It's very hard for me to believe that after this many years, and selling god knows how many Kronos, he decided to do this to you, on purpose, for $60, when he still doesn't have the x6 Kronos. That doesn't make any sense at all man. =\

 

[Captin03]

Lets start here

It's the fact you claimed that what he did was "fraudulent" is why we're defending him. Fraudulent implies that the answer to the second question is "No". You got burned on $60 by Darkpaw; not by anything the seller did.

I never called Sage fraudulent I said the he sold me kronos that were removed from the game as fraudulent. In fact I have no way of proving that he made them or just passed them off. I figured documentation of this with a review would identify anyone doing this repeatedly and that would be good information to the buyers. I think it was you that said this is very rare, but now that I found any documentation of this would be removed. I can't say if that is true or not.

As for your analogy

If you purchase something from a store, and someone comes by and steals it the next day, it's not the stores fault. You don't get to call them fraudulent because of it.

I don't think that is the same let me help you.

If a pawn shop sold me stolen merchandise, be that they stole it or just passed off something someone else stole. Then the police came and took it away. Would a review of that pawn shop selling stolen merchandise be unfair?

 

[bractos45]

I don't think that is the same let me help you.

If a pawn shop sold me stolen merchandise, be that they stole it or just passed off something someone else stole. Then the police came and took it away. Would a review of that pawn shop selling stolen merchandise be unfair?

First of all, the fact you're comparing stolen goods in a pawn-shop automatically implies you're doing the same to Sage. If you have proof that he INTENTIONALLY did this, please provide it, otherwise your point is moot. Common sense dictates he's a reputable seller, which is the opposite of a seedy pawn shop.

Second of all, IF the pawnshop KNEW it was stolen before you came in to purchase it, and still sold it, THAT'S when the pawnshop gets punished. (Fines / Fees / everything else) If I walk into a pawn-shop tomorrow, purchase a new drill or whatever and the police find out it was stolen after the fact, they don't come knocking on my door to retrieve the item and they don't retroactively punish the pawnshop. The police will, however look for the person who stole it in the first place. (In this case, you already know it's Darkpaw). It's basically one of those tough-luck things. (Which is what I'm telling you now.) You don't get punished for all parties doing what is right.

Your analogy is this; the pawn-shop buys a Rolex; by all accounts, everything with the Rolex is fine and legal. You come in and purchase the Rolex. The guy who originally sold it to the pawnshop comes back and steals it from you. The Pawnshop didn't steal it. The Pawnshop didn't know it was going to get stolen. So you leave a bad a review on the Pawnshop to warn other people of bad business? Especially when you KNOW the person who stole it back had nothing to do with you, the pawnshop, or anything else. (Again, Darkpaw)

Third of all, it's rare, because in the 5 years or so I've been here, I have seen this exact same situation happen ONE other time. Just once. You make the second. It's not a conspiracy. We're not covering up. If this was a wide-spread thing and Kronos were getting deleted left and right, I GUARANTEE you Krono sellers would advise against buying them until things calm down. (They've done it before when actual roll-backs were happening) $60 isn't worth making a risky endeavor to put your reputation at stake.

Hell, you'd have more of a case if all 9 Kronos were deleted. But the fact it was 6 / 9? Use your brain man. You're implying Sage literally said "I'm gonna sell this guy x6 bad Kronos and only x3 good ones." That's so stupid I can't wrap my head around it.

 

[Captin03]

The pawn shop thing seems spot on to me. I have also said multiple times that I have no way of proving at what point the kronos became illegitimate. I can only say that they were in Sages possession and they got sold to me.

I had 0 kronos on my account when I purchased kronos from Sage. Account now has 9 kronos. I have not been on the account very much due to it being around the holidays, but I log in a few weeks later and now the account has 3 kronos. Now if all of the kronos where gone I would have figured it was due to me buying them, but only some of them being gone seemed like a bug. I also would have thought it was from buying them if I had got a ban, but no vacation email from Darkpaw so I reach out to Darkpaw and they respond.

Now the same as with a pawn shop. If the police can prove an item is stolen they will definitely retrieve it for the owner. That is why most pawn shops have to hold an item for a number of days before reselling. I figure I am SOL but documentation of fraudulent kronos being pass through a seller seemed like it warranted a review. As if it was to happen often enough it would cause me to pick one seller over another. At this point I would assume a pawn shop would reach out to the customer and try to share the loss or give a refund if they cared to have that review taken down.

As I have pointed out in a previous post sellers can just pay 10 bucks and all vote together to have the reviews removed so no real incentive to do anything else. The buyers are the ones that lose here as we can't trust the review system. Yes we will see the things the sellers deem the worst of the worst. The problem is we don't get to see the grey area. I get it you don't want to have bad reviews and sometimes unreasonable reviews, but reading the good, the bad, and the crazy is how you vet a seller to decide who is best to shop with. If we only get to see the reviews the sellers think are bad we don't get the whole picture.

 

[bractos45]

Did you know there was an inherent risk in conducting RMT on Everquest?

Yes? Sorry man, shit happens.
No? Sorry man, should've known better.

You got hit by the risk, not the seller. Seller doesn't deserve a hit on his reputation for the agreed upon risk. Whatever else is just a side-show. Best of luck. Voted to remove.

EDIT: Because I can't help myself here... I can guarantee you there isn't a single Police Department in America that will go past the Pawnshop. Whoever sold the stolen item to the store "might" get looked into. But it cracks me up you can call and report a stolen vehicle and there isn't enough man-hours to go searching for it, but you think magically cops are going to bust into someone's house for buying a hocked piece of jewelry. That ain't how that works.

 

[Captin03]

You twist everything that is said into what ever can distract from the conversation at hand. You have made it very clear that the sellers take no responsibility for any trades done beyond pushing the trade button. Furthermore no records should be kept to figure out if anyone is doing anything shady because sellers don’t think that is fair. If a seller decides to buy Kronos from Daybreak. Do a chargeback and then sell them. It sure would be unfair for them to get a review because, prove it. We knew the risk of dealing with sellers shame on us. I think that sums up your logic. Did I miss anything?

 

[bractos45]

If a seller decides to buy Kronos from Daybreak. Do a chargeback and then sell them.

I don't even know how to respond to this it's so stupid.

If he was an unverified seller with 0 feedback. I'd totally agree with you, but jesus christ use context ffs...

1. Accounts get banned.
2. Credit Cards get flagged and banned, any future account using that number is auto-banned.
3. Loses ALL future sales / prestigious reputation on an EQ RMT site.
4. Gets his personal information DOXed so everyone knows who he is personally.
5. Just spent roughly two - three weeks of his life / however many hours on the phone with his bank...

All of that, for.... get ready....

$60 profit. Watch out guys, we got a criminal mastermind on our hands here!!!

I think that sums up your logic. Did I miss anything?

EDIT: At this point I find it pretty shady you're making this big of a deal of $60. If we're allowed to make blind accusations, can I say you probably used those Kronos, and are now trying to scam Sage?!?!

 

[Captin03]

I have never asked for a refund since the beginning. I could care less about the $60 at this point. This conversation has been about how the review system is broken the whole time. Over and over I have said I can’t prove Sage did wrong beyond selling bad Krono. I just took your logic and applied it to a bad situation to show how seller controlled review system is problematic.

 

[Reach Gaming]

Voted to remove. This isn't an issue of a system rigged against buyers or sellers, the seller did everything correctly, and shouldn't be held responsible for DPG's interference.

 

[Sageofeq]

Assuming I've done 10,000 trades on EC tunnel in 6 years. Out of 10,000, 1 batch was labeled "fraudulent" by Darkpaw. The company that can't even competently manage their own IP atm.

As Bractos said, it was probably due to the original purchaser of the krono issuing a chargeback or some such thing. Krono pass through my hands a lot. To assume I am responsible for this situation is ludicrous. I didn't bring this to a vote because "sellers control the review process," but to help you see that you are wrong. You think you have the right to downvote me because I had the bad fortune of "interacting" with a bad krono that Darkpaw deemed fraudulent--all things NO seller or buyer has ANY control over.

This could literally happen to you from ANY seller. There's absolutely no exception. So your problem isn't with me. Your problem is with the entire system.

 

[Sageofeq]

if reimbursement or refund were important to you, you had a month to reach out to me. And you didn't reach out once. Even now you are ignoring my PM. You seem more intent on wanting your vote against me to stand than trying to understand that this literally would have had the SAME result if you had purchased from any of the top 10 sellers. You would have purchased. NOBODY would have had any way of knowing Darkpaw was investigating the krono in question. They would have been removed. And you would have downvoted that seller. That I won the bad luck lottery of said 6 out of 9 krono somehow makes you think people need to be warned about me misses the point entirely.

I don't even know why I have to contest this feedback. It should qualify for automatic removal imo. Ultra rare exceptions like this are the only thing busted about the feedback system, because I had to spend my ducats to protect my reputation which is worth far more than any single trade or dollar amount.

 

[Captin03]

You are right I did not have a way to respond to your PM. It is the whole prove a negative issues. I have no way of proving something vanished. Just as you have no way of proving you had nothing to do with the fraudulent Krono beyond passing them off. If you can’t see how sellers control the vote system as they are the only ones with any real insensitive to vote I can’t help that. Can you really be upset about putting a review to a vote when that is the system the sellers asked for lol.

 

[Diamond Krono]

You are right I did not have a way to respond to your PM. It is the whole prove a negative issues. I have no way of proving something vanished. Just as you have no way of proving you had nothing to do with the fraudulent Krono beyond passing them off. If you can’t see how sellers control the vote system as they are the only ones with any real insensitive to vote I can’t help that. Can you really be upset about putting a review to a vote when that is the system the sellers asked for lol.

Negative feedback should be reserved for genuine problems, not just unfortunate circumstances. A clear example would be if you encounter scams, which could justify leaving negative feedback. And yes, negative feedback can impact a trader's future sales. It's not about people teaming up against you; rather, the argument, said in the most respectful manner that I could say it in, seems unreasonable.

My personal opinion is that it's not a situation where sellers are deliberately conspiring against you. Quite the contrary, top traders actually benefit when another trader receives negative feedback.
The crux of the matter is that your argument doesn't seem reasonable.

 

[Diamond Krono]

A positive you might take from this is you in fact have accomplished your goal of letting the world know that this particular instance is a possible scenario, albeit extremely rare. It is of my opinion that no individual trader should take a hit to their income and carry that burden solely. Many top traders if not all have refund policies where typically it is stated that there is no refund after krono has been transacted.

Voted to remove.

~Diamond

 

[Sheijo]

Look, we are doing something that breaks ToS and this is the black market. It’s been that way for decades before Krono it was plat sellers. Even then it was basically known you’re doing something that can 1 get you banned 2 get the stuff you bought taken away. It’s never been the fault of the seller if The Man comes along and bans you and or takes your stuff away. Its part and parcel to how this whole thing works.

There have always been sellers that might eat the loss and give you a discount, but not always. The seller fulfilled their end of the bargain and you shouldn’t fault them for DBG actions after the fact.

I recently went out of my way to tell a seller nbd when I messed up and had them send Krono to the wrong account. It’s my fault for messing up, I’m not going to give them neutral or negative feedback because I messed or if DBG swoops in and takes my stuff.

I vote to over turn the feedback.

 

[Sheijo]

A positive you might take from this is you in fact have accomplished your goal of letting the world know that this particular instance is a possible scenario, albeit extremely rare. It is of my opinion that no individual trader should take a hit to their income and carry that burden solely. Many top traders if not all have refund policies where typically it is stated that there is no refund after krono has been transacted.

Voted to remove.

~Diamond

Honestly this scenario is not surprising. I bet each Krono has a GUID that can be used to track it, its validity and its use. Give me access to the DBG DBs, analyst notebook, and a month of transactional data and you could map out most of the buyers and seller accounts of KR, their mules, and their most frequent buyers.

 

[bractos45]

I've also heard Kronos can be tracked back to the original purchaser if they haven't been used yet. (Obviously there's no absolute way to know without working for DBG) But it makes sense, because DBG cannot afford to lose out on any potential profits or sub-fees; which is essentially what a Krono is supposed to represent; a form of digital "escrow" to the equivalent of x1 month of gameplay geared towards their investors. Once it's used, they know the profits are theirs to keep. (Same thing as a WoW Token, but those can't be traded again and again) They have to protect those numbers which is also why they take chargebacks against them so seriously. IE; the banning of accounts / credit-cards / IPs / whatever.