Poll Discussion Vote to remove "Users who are viewing x" (1 Viewer)

[Diamond Krono]

"Users who are viewing this forum" and "Users who are viewing this thread" need to be removed. Traders who use this forum to purchase krono are complaining about being spammed from suppliers.
Guest accounts are also being created to monitor personal threads.

If this keeps up, traders looking at specific sections, namely krono, will get bombarded with messages from different suppliers trying to compete.
This also applies to personal threads, including my own, where I have received multiple complaints about other suppliers soliciting users simply for viewing my thread.

Please note I do not wish to compete on this level, as I consider it to be in poor taste and ultimately harmful to the forum's growth. However, if this behavior continues unchecked, I will have no choice but to adopt the same practices as the other suppliers engaging in it in an attempt to even out the playing field.

Also note: If you are a supplier unaware of these occurrences, it is entirely possible you are also a victim.

 

[Diamond Krono]

The approach shown here is entirely sufficient in my view, "Members online" does not disclose personal information. There is no need for this forum to announce a trader's purpose for being on this site. Such disclosure only exposes them to unsolicited solicitations, which in many cases are not welcome.

 

[bractos45]

So, different Krono suppliers are essentially "poaching" customers who they see viewing the forums?

 

[Diamond Krono]

Correct - I've been notified by my own customers on multiple occasions.

 

[bractos45]

Jesus people...

Next up I need to write up a "Business Ethics" guide for folks to read through.

Have you ever tried walking into a store of your choice and there's some lame-ass outside with a kiosk trying to steal your attention? That's what this is. Super lame mall kiosk workers.

EDIT: So yeah, get rid of it. Think the only benefit it could be for is the person who created the specific thread, but even then, if people are abusing it and essentially spamming members; get rid of it.

 

[blanco]

That is some seriously greasy behavior. Voted to remove. I actually never liked this feature and was just thinking the other day about not liking it....

Get out of my head Diamond

Also, what exactly is a "guest" account?

 

[Diamond Krono]

I have not mentioned this yet, but this issue extends beyond suppliers. Even casual traders are exposed, revealing their current activities, which poses significant risks for various reasons.

 

[Myndbender]

well I have never had anyone approach me ...competition is good for the soul LOL

 

[Diamond Krono]

Being solicited by ten suppliers repeatedly is not good for the forum, no matter how you cut it.

 

[Diamond Krono]

As I mentioned earlier, only a few suppliers are currently engaging in unsolicited outreach without customers initiating contact. However, if this behavior is allowed to continue, it will likely become the norm, putting those who choose not to participate in these practices at a serious disadvantage.

I can say with absolute certainty that allowing this to persist will lead to much bigger issues for everyone in the future.

It would be far better if we could all step back, relax, and enjoy the forum for what it’s supposed to be.

I’m not saying this for my own benefit. Trust me, nobody here would want me to start soliciting. If I did, I would offer the lowest prices to every trader who enters this forum. If that’s your idea of "healthy competition," I’d argue it’s far from sensible.

Because of the way I operate in EQ, the price of Krono doesn’t impact how much I earn. Even if Krono were $7 each, I’d still be making the same amount. However, I could flood the market with solicitations and drive prices lower, which would destabilize the forum.

This issue isn’t just affecting me, it’s also affecting other suppliers who haven’t spoken up or prefer to stay anonymous. The poll numbers show that people want this behavior removed. For clarity, I designed the voting structure to ensure that everyone who votes remains completely anonymous.




Please note, this is not a threat I’m making, krono prices are already being driven down by suppliers engaging in this behavior.

The real issue is the 'Users who are viewing X' feature, not necessarily the people taking advantage of it. Everyone wants to compete, that’s just business. But we have a choice:

We can either compete on a level playing field with less workload for everyone, or we can increase the workload across the board with no real benefit while also damaging the forum’s legitimacy. Spamming customers will only lead to frustration and complaints.

 

[ZarakiKenpachi]

I've messaged members viewing plat threads on the server I sell on and asked if there's anything I could help them with, and gained business by doing so... it was not intended as poaching, just here's a buyer actively searching for plat in my server and I happen to be active on the site at that moment. I thought it was a good thing, however, I also see the risk of showing activity. The time stamps are dangerous, in particular. Last seen at ×××× time viewing this thread. That is not information that should be shared. I believe showing the general section of the forum they are in is good. However, which specific thread, and any time stamped logs of activity is bad. Generalize what info is shared, be less specific, and it can be a good thing that connects sellers and buyers without adding risk or promoting targeted poaching This way Noone is poaching from threads, they are simply contacting potential clients searching for goods on the servers that they do business on. 100% time stamped logs of activity should not be a thing.. I think we all understand the risks this information causes for sellers specifically.

 

[Diamond Krono]

I completely agree with you about time stamps, they are definitely a risk, you’re absolutely right about that.

My only disagreement is with the idea that "showing the general section of the forum they are in is good." While I understand your point about messaging someone in the platinum section because they were looking to buy or sell, the dynamics are very different in the krono section, where there’s much more activity.

In the krono section, customers are being bombarded with messages from multiple suppliers simultaneously, this has led to complaints. This happens even without every supplier engaging in the behavior, some have even approached me to ask if this practice is allowed. I’ve been informed by moderators that it’s technically not allowed, but it still happens frequently. And, as you admitted, you’ve done this in good faith (and I don’t blame you, it’s not even explicitly addressed in the policy). That said, if added to the policy, I don’t believe it can realistically protect against this issue because it’s simply too difficult to enforce.

The most practical solution is to remove the 'Users who are viewing X' feature altogether.

As I explained above, if this behavior is allowed to continue, I will engage in it too, and so will the next supplier who wouldn’t normally do this, and then the next. Soon, every customer entering a section will receive 10 unsolicited messages: "Hey, want to buy Krono?" or "Hey, want to buy platinum?" It will become overwhelming and harmful for both customers and the forum's reputation.

I understand that your actions in the platinum section were done in good faith, where there are fewer traders and less activity, so it’s not as much of an issue. However, imagine if the same situation happened in the krono section, which is far busier. It would quickly become a problem for you as well, and I suspect you’d then be raising the same concerns. The high activity in the krono section amplifies these issues, leading to complaints from both customers and suppliers. That’s why this feature in my and many traders shown by the vote count above, agree that it is not a healthy aspect of the forum in its current state.

 

[Diamond Krono]

If the purpose of this feature is to show activity on the forum for the sites health, a simple solution would be to display "X members are viewing this thread," where X represents the number of traders.
The identities of the traders viewing the thread should not be revealed. This would be a way to show activity for the forum while protecting privacy and stopping the ability to poach.
Having your cake and eating it too.

 

[Xuande]

I voted to get rid of it.

I'm willing to publicly admit that I'm one of the traders that tried cold-calling once I realized that it was happening from other vendors; that long-term customers were getting poached by people who can't even read English this thread to comment. The folks who have copy/pasted things that I've done to try and enhance the customer experience. People that wanted to be Xuande so much that they watered down the experience- yet don't offer the same quality of service as I- and other vendors on this site- do. This is 100% linked to my suggestion that we geofence the website. Allowing their continued presence here also impacts EverQuest players in the game- there is SO MUCH SPAM. SO MUCH!! This site gives them a platform and has poisoned the EQ experience for legitimate players that neither RMT nor use third-party tools.

The cold calls, not so surprisingly, damaged my relationship with not only a few other respected vendors but with customers. Even when I honed in on trying to snipe their customers, specifically, it wasn't worth the time and I felt dirty when I tried to compete on their level.
There was a <20% conversion rate and just pissed people off. It doesn't help that my handle, here, is a Chinese honorific that can be interpreted as mysterious virtue so there's a base assumption that I am not an American. I've received logographic messages (你是中国人吗?) and invitations to join them on WeChat/QQ. They're sellers on other platforms like PlayerAuctions and GG, too, and try to siphon off members. They're doing so much, all the time.

Hell- as an aside- there are a couple of frequent buyers that avoid me altogether and assume that I am a well-spoken "other" and it sorta burns me.

You can see who sits and refreshes the Krono forum incessantly, then shows as "Engaged in Conversation," then back to refreshing the Krono forum to snipe more. I pushed to get rid of thread total view counts, and current thread viewer counts, because vendors were using auto-refreshers to pump the totals and make it look like their thread is hotter than hot- it's hot HOT HOT!! The gamification of this simple forum is tiresome and I'm happy to support ideas that counter that. I believe that ECT should be a level playing field without conceits. Our reputations should matter more!

We're all(?) adults, here, and know what's right. Unhealthy competition hurts more than helps, makes the site look bad, and damages EverQuest at its core.

Thanks for coming to my TED(x) talk. Please be sure to grab your gift bags that have clown noses on your way out!

 

[Roboman]

Lets be honest, how many times have you messaged people who just made brand new accounts or were viewing someone elses thread @Diamond Krono


Be honest, my friend made an account here and you messaged him within minutes.

 

[Diamond Krono]

You're referring to something that happened over a year ago, during which I was advised it was not in my best interest to continue. Also, to clarify, this was not "poaching." I was messaging new members to the forum, not those actively attempting to purchase from other vendors. Please keep that distinction clear, asking me to "be honest" is in poor taste.

Since then, I have not solicited another trader. At the time I wasn’t aware it was against the forum's rules as it is not in the policy.
Now that the rules are clear, I have no intention of allowing others to exploit them.

Does that clarify things for you, or is there something else from years ago you'd like to discuss?

 

[Diamond Krono]

We're not here to point fingers or assign blame, we’re all adults here (for the most part). Many traders, regardless of what country they’re from, have engaged in solicitation at some point.
This vote isn’t about petty disagreements or singling anyone out. It’s about making meaningful changes to improve the forum for everyone, traders, vendors, and buyers alike.

The goal is to create a better experience for anyone trading on this forum.

 

[Roboman]

I voted to have it removed, but I think its a lot to ask to have redbot change the site at all for minor inconveniences or spam reasons when it should be common sense not to solicit strangers. If you're that emotionally invested into wanting to police what some guy with a language barrier is doing you should offer to donate instead of pretending like its not something any number of people on here have done or would do.

Spam and phishing are a part of every day life, sure its greasy to employ those tactics but we're not really paying for a filtered forum service here. I just think its fundamentally wrong to act like this should be necessary. In my honest opinion if you want cyber security and private message babysitting this should be changed to a yearly donation goal instead of vote.

 

[Diamond Krono]

I'm not entirely sure who your comments are directed toward. If you'd like to have a conversation, please address your questions to me directly, or take a moment to review what I’ve already posted before questioning my opinions. I have not made any directed mention of specific individuals from another country.

 

[Roboman]

Not trying to single you out or anything DK. Just saying I don't think it is that big of a deal, not to mention a little petty, to want redbot to go out of his way to address this. I like bractos's idea of an ethics guide. So many of ya'll could have used it over the years


edit: Just wanna say I don't think the points you made were wrong or selfish vs other traders or anything like that. Just clarifying that even though I voted to have it changed I wouldn't be upset and would honestly agree if redbot didnt wanna lift a finger to address this. I think bractos's idea is a good enough solution for us to fix the problem.

 

[blanco]

I voted to have it removed, but I think its a lot to ask to have redbot change the site at all for minor inconveniences or spam reasons when it should be common sense not to solicit strangers. If you're that emotionally invested into wanting to police what some guy with a language barrier is doing you should offer to donate instead of pretending like its not something any number of people on here have done or would do.

Spam and phishing are a part of every day life, sure its greasy to employ those tactics but we're not really paying for a filtered forum service here. I just think its fundamentally wrong to act like this should be necessary. In my honest opinion if you want cyber security and private message babysitting this should be changed to a yearly donation goal instead of vote.

What are we paying for if not a filtered forum service at it's core? If this forum is not "filtered" then why are people banned, suspended, and moderated every single day.

It's coming across as if you're upset with Diamond and if that's the case maybe take it to a PM. You're supposed to be "the most laid back seller"

P.S. -- I really can't agree that it's "fundamentally wrong" to strive to improve this space. Odd choice of words.

 

[Roboman]

Fair points, but I'm not sure the amount we're paying even covers the time already invested into the platform.

Also I think me saying that this is an unnecessary change is in line with my self proclaimed most laid back seller status!

 

[Diamond Krono]

I completely understand where you are coming from Roboman, as I genrally agree with many of your opinions. I'll say this:

This vote and what it means to me, is simply to gauge whether this issue is important to the community. You yourself have voted to have it removed, which to me shows you see some merit in the concern. I understand that moderators may feel frustrated by repeated calls to adjust the forum for "petty issues," and I agree that constant changes would be a waste of time. However, I believe this is not a small issue.

The reason I feel this way is that I was previously told, years ago, not to engage in similar behavior. Not poaching, but soliciting, and yet it has now become so prevalent that I receive regular questions about why it’s occuring. If it continues to be allowed, I feel compelled to engage in it myself to avoid being at a disadvantage. I value both my time and the time of others, and I have no desire to waste anyone’s energy unnecessarily.

As for the suggestion of donating, I already contribute over $300 a month to this forum. If you’d like to verify that, feel free to ask moderators.
I don't say any of this in malice, you're an absolutely pleasant person to work with, and I value your opinions, probably more than you know.

You're right, the idea of creating a rule against poaching is a great one if it could be effectively enforced as Bractos suggested. That’s one of the reasons I initiated this vote. If the moderators would prefer to address the issue by admonishing traders who engage in poaching rather than adjusting the mechanism that enables it, I fully support their decision. In the end, it’s up to them, and I stand by their judgment 100%.

However, one thing I can’t do and I don’t believe anyone here should be expected to do is operate at a disadvantage.

 

[Roboman]

I think the funniest part of this is that I would bet money that the people you and Xuande are talking about spamming to sell krono are the very same non english speaking people spamming general chat every 15 seconds on TLP servers to sell power leveling. Daybreak doesnt think its worth addressing either.

Edit: also would like to point out that I really am enjoying seeing that bractos is viewing this thread as I am typing, are we really sure we dont like that function.

 

[Diamond Krono]

I think, at the very least, it should be removed from personal threads. Why should a trader who is viewing Roboman's thread be solicited by me? Sure, I could sell Krono cheaper and still make a profit, but is that really okay with you? What if I monitored your thread 16 hours a day and reached out to everyone who entered, letting them know I’ll sell cheaper than you?

It’s a different situation when you’re not actively trading. My hope is to put this into context that you might see from a different perspective on the matter.

 

[Roboman]

I was under the impression everyone was doing that already, why do you think my prices are so low

 

[Xuande]

 

[Redbot]

I agree people should not be getting unsolicited mail. I'll implement a software solution, but feel free to report any spammers for now.

 

[bractos45]

The more I thought about this, I've received the "cold-calls" in the past before and figured it was just random spam. Good to know the actual cause of it, and that it's ending!! <3 Redbot (And DK, pssh, fine, for bringing it to everyone's attention. Hah! <3 )

 

[Diamond Krono]

Thanks to everyone who shared their opinions, and thank you moderators for taking a look into it.
You are beyond appreciated.