Hi everyone -
I've played sense launch, and while I wouldn't call myself an expert - I know more than most and am happy to share what I know.
First - there is no way to protect yourself 100%, and you can't rely on 3rd party companies to protect you. It's about risk mitigation.
My advice is slanted towards sellers, mainly becasue posting a how to wiggle out of your obligations on technicalities is not something I'm looking to do.
First: Define what the transaction is.
If you are going to accept payment for a service - and this is a service - you have to have a tightly defined policy that covers exactly what you are going to do. Recognize that services are subjective - and they simply do not have the same rules that tangible goods do.
Create a template that has milestones with dates for your service, list what you require from the buyer and when you need it by to be successful and meet your timeline, list how often you will check in and how - and most importantly; define what success is.
An example:
For a fee of $100, I will level the charector on your account (details below) from 85 to 100 within 14 calendar days; finishing on 1/1/11.
To meet this deadline, the following is required from the buyer:
- a login and password to the account with the charector the service is to be performed.
- a deposit in the amount of 50%
- understanding that the buyer, or anyone the buyer has provided access that the buyer will not login to the account during this time (or between the hours of ...)
Second - once you define what a transaction is - you need to define what it is not - clearly. Detail out the steps the seller will take to protect the buyer - and what they are, and are not responsible for. Recognize - there are things that simply won't hold up even if you state them.
The goal here is to clearly define and capture what is being paid for - ie the service provided, and come to an agreement on how progress will be defined.
I will not (or will) use 3rd party utilities, etc.
Third - you need to have a schedule for progress, when you will check in - and capture screenshots to document the progress. A good idea is to agree on how you will communicate, and to have that form of communication be documented.
example: I will provide updates every 3 days, listing what has been accomplished and provide screenshots upon request.
Fourth, you need to provide a disputes policy that offers resolution without being draconian. Define this as custom work. Include a cancellation period (3 days) and clearly state there is no refunds. Define the cash amount per phase and list a cash equivalent ( $50 or 4 kronos)
example: the above is an estimate of the time it takes to complete this service, based on variables that may be out of our control (list examples - ie - the servers go down). A varience of x% is acceptable, and this will be communicated during progress reports. If the variance is unacceptable the buyer has the following options 1) a refund within x time for any work not performed 2) a credit not to exceed 10% or 3) additional services (detailed here) at no additional charge.
Fifth - and this is important, you need to clearly connect who is paying for the service with the account, and - as a good measure - the profile on this board (where the service was offered.)
List the account names, the charector names, the paypal email address and redboard name ... and it's best to communicate thru the email address connected with the paypal account.
Lastly -
list out what you are not responsible for - and tie it to the dispute policy (ie DB gets hacked and noone can login for a week - they can cancel. or the account gets banned, items get deleted, etc.) Seperate negligence from this, as it won't stand up and can torpedo the whole policy.
Lastly - and this may baffle some of you - offer a return policy on dropable items. ie Kronos can be returned within 3 days, for a 25% restocking fee. This is important - as many states and pretty much all major payment providers require a returns window - unless it's custom work. Being able to point to a policy 99.9% of people don't use is in your self interest ... it's why you could technically return a hamburger at mcdonalds
It doesn't have to be long - but it should be clear and understood... at the end of the day - don't promise more than you can deliver.
Once you have all this - transfer it to the paypal invoice template - 90% of it will be reusable, put the rest in the notes section- and send that out everytime.
Important: If you are selling items, like Krono - take the time to list on the invoice each item, and always give something in xchange and take a SS on delivery.
I suggest a unique verification code be included on the invoice - that they must /t you in game to confirm. Close the loop.
It's best to take a deposit for any work to be performed, then consider that earned at the predetermined milestones.
For buyers -
your best protection is with a credit card. you have 90 days to dispute a charge, and no matter how the transaction is run through PP ... credit card (or debit cards run as a credit card) rules > all. It's worth the couple of bucks F&F charges to change the funding source to a branded card (withdraw the balance in the account first)
services and digital goods are not covered by the PP protection policy
it's best for both parties to focus on the service aspect. ie I'm not paying for a krono - Im paying for delivery of a krono. Hooker logic lol
short of an escrow or 3rd party stepping in - if you have a problem, call and ask for help... mid day PST is best ... try and get the folks in Omaha, Nebraska. Make them laugh, don;t get mad. Ask for help.
Important: how you file is important - it's not fraud just because you and 50 of your friends were screwed... and even if it is ... they will make that determination. If you logged into the account and sent money ... not fraud. if they lied to you ... not fraud. If you use the word fraud - it better be in the same sentance is "and my police report number is ..."
Time matters. it's been a while, but I believe PP has 60 days from balance or ach funds , while cc has 90. I also think it takes a lot longer, and it may be limited on services to the amount they can recover ... and they are freaking ninja jedis at this ... but; if the bank account attached is closed...well you get it.
If anyone is doing serious money (and 20k is the limit to trigger to 1099k to the IRS), check out upcouncil to have this written up for a few bucks.
One other thing that may help - is I know there is a verification process ... ammending the privacy policy to share identies in cases of disputes when a, b and c are provided can happen - but are limited in scope (ie I can confirm that Gurn is John Smith at [email protected] when provided with a screen shot of an open dispute) would go a long way.
Good luck, happy to answer questions... and to those scammed on that other thread...feel free to reach out directly.
I've played sense launch, and while I wouldn't call myself an expert - I know more than most and am happy to share what I know.
First - there is no way to protect yourself 100%, and you can't rely on 3rd party companies to protect you. It's about risk mitigation.
My advice is slanted towards sellers, mainly becasue posting a how to wiggle out of your obligations on technicalities is not something I'm looking to do.
First: Define what the transaction is.
If you are going to accept payment for a service - and this is a service - you have to have a tightly defined policy that covers exactly what you are going to do. Recognize that services are subjective - and they simply do not have the same rules that tangible goods do.
Create a template that has milestones with dates for your service, list what you require from the buyer and when you need it by to be successful and meet your timeline, list how often you will check in and how - and most importantly; define what success is.
An example:
For a fee of $100, I will level the charector on your account (details below) from 85 to 100 within 14 calendar days; finishing on 1/1/11.
To meet this deadline, the following is required from the buyer:
- a login and password to the account with the charector the service is to be performed.
- a deposit in the amount of 50%
- understanding that the buyer, or anyone the buyer has provided access that the buyer will not login to the account during this time (or between the hours of ...)
Second - once you define what a transaction is - you need to define what it is not - clearly. Detail out the steps the seller will take to protect the buyer - and what they are, and are not responsible for. Recognize - there are things that simply won't hold up even if you state them.
The goal here is to clearly define and capture what is being paid for - ie the service provided, and come to an agreement on how progress will be defined.
I will not (or will) use 3rd party utilities, etc.
Third - you need to have a schedule for progress, when you will check in - and capture screenshots to document the progress. A good idea is to agree on how you will communicate, and to have that form of communication be documented.
example: I will provide updates every 3 days, listing what has been accomplished and provide screenshots upon request.
Fourth, you need to provide a disputes policy that offers resolution without being draconian. Define this as custom work. Include a cancellation period (3 days) and clearly state there is no refunds. Define the cash amount per phase and list a cash equivalent ( $50 or 4 kronos)
example: the above is an estimate of the time it takes to complete this service, based on variables that may be out of our control (list examples - ie - the servers go down). A varience of x% is acceptable, and this will be communicated during progress reports. If the variance is unacceptable the buyer has the following options 1) a refund within x time for any work not performed 2) a credit not to exceed 10% or 3) additional services (detailed here) at no additional charge.
Fifth - and this is important, you need to clearly connect who is paying for the service with the account, and - as a good measure - the profile on this board (where the service was offered.)
List the account names, the charector names, the paypal email address and redboard name ... and it's best to communicate thru the email address connected with the paypal account.
Lastly -
list out what you are not responsible for - and tie it to the dispute policy (ie DB gets hacked and noone can login for a week - they can cancel. or the account gets banned, items get deleted, etc.) Seperate negligence from this, as it won't stand up and can torpedo the whole policy.
Lastly - and this may baffle some of you - offer a return policy on dropable items. ie Kronos can be returned within 3 days, for a 25% restocking fee. This is important - as many states and pretty much all major payment providers require a returns window - unless it's custom work. Being able to point to a policy 99.9% of people don't use is in your self interest ... it's why you could technically return a hamburger at mcdonalds
It doesn't have to be long - but it should be clear and understood... at the end of the day - don't promise more than you can deliver.
Once you have all this - transfer it to the paypal invoice template - 90% of it will be reusable, put the rest in the notes section- and send that out everytime.
Important: If you are selling items, like Krono - take the time to list on the invoice each item, and always give something in xchange and take a SS on delivery.
I suggest a unique verification code be included on the invoice - that they must /t you in game to confirm. Close the loop.
It's best to take a deposit for any work to be performed, then consider that earned at the predetermined milestones.
For buyers -
your best protection is with a credit card. you have 90 days to dispute a charge, and no matter how the transaction is run through PP ... credit card (or debit cards run as a credit card) rules > all. It's worth the couple of bucks F&F charges to change the funding source to a branded card (withdraw the balance in the account first)
services and digital goods are not covered by the PP protection policy
it's best for both parties to focus on the service aspect. ie I'm not paying for a krono - Im paying for delivery of a krono. Hooker logic lol
short of an escrow or 3rd party stepping in - if you have a problem, call and ask for help... mid day PST is best ... try and get the folks in Omaha, Nebraska. Make them laugh, don;t get mad. Ask for help.
Important: how you file is important - it's not fraud just because you and 50 of your friends were screwed... and even if it is ... they will make that determination. If you logged into the account and sent money ... not fraud. if they lied to you ... not fraud. If you use the word fraud - it better be in the same sentance is "and my police report number is ..."
Time matters. it's been a while, but I believe PP has 60 days from balance or ach funds , while cc has 90. I also think it takes a lot longer, and it may be limited on services to the amount they can recover ... and they are freaking ninja jedis at this ... but; if the bank account attached is closed...well you get it.
If anyone is doing serious money (and 20k is the limit to trigger to 1099k to the IRS), check out upcouncil to have this written up for a few bucks.
One other thing that may help - is I know there is a verification process ... ammending the privacy policy to share identies in cases of disputes when a, b and c are provided can happen - but are limited in scope (ie I can confirm that Gurn is John Smith at [email protected] when provided with a screen shot of an open dispute) would go a long way.
Good luck, happy to answer questions... and to those scammed on that other thread...feel free to reach out directly.
