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Discussion Policy How should ECTunnel handle GM-banned accounts? (1 Viewer)

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For the moment, we consider that a buyer logging in to the account means the sale is complete. A GM banning the account 5 minutes after the fact is not something we can hold either party responsible for, as it's unclear which side had a history of making the GMs upset.

There are a couple exceptions, if the seller had a refund policy they're not holding up, or it's clear they're being fraudulent, but as a general rule does it make sense or would you like to see something different?
 
I disagree with the post before me, but just my humble opinion, I respect admins for trying their best to do what’s best for the community. If you buy an account and it gets banned cause IP changed or whatever right away, definitely should be 50% refund as something happened buyer nor seller could control. Not let them handle it. Not I spent 300 bucks on said account , it gets banned immediately and I have nothing. A partial refund of 50% everyone gets something back, I agree 100% with nwtrader, absolutely .
 
I only had one unfortunate experience of having an account that I sold get banned shortly after the transaction.

Buyer said, "ummm I got this message after being disconnected from Everquest. Account XXXXXX has been
permanently banned because it has come to our attention that it has changed hands, which is not something we allow."
(this happened at his 2nd login about an hour or so after his initial login to inspect the account which he claimed was as described)

In this situation, we both felt a 50% refund was fair and I refunded him 50%.
 
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50/50 absolutely in that situation NWtrader, it’s not the appearance of being fair, it is fair. We have no control over what daybreak dos, but why blame the buyer if the account gets banned right away? What appearance does that have of being fair, I don’t understand his argument at all. If he has the account for two months, definitely no 50/50 he has account long enough, but if it’s within a day or two? Seriously... lol
 
It is not hard to tell whether the buyer or seller is at fault, especially if you know what measures to take when selling said accounts. There is too many people who are not familiar with covering up their tracks when it comes to DBG. If you know exactly how to get around DBG's crime investigating measures, there is no reason to take a 50/50 hit on every silly person who runs them self into trouble. That being said, if you know how to get around their tactics, there is no reason why there should be any stipulations as to what can be changed, what can not be changed, etc etc. The account should be blank, period. A 100% clean, safe account means nothing has been set. Simply put, if you purchase an account that has so much as a SQ/A, an e-mail that was linked to old accounts, (on your end or theirs) a name, a cc that was deleted off file, any of these things can be easily traced if looked into and run a buyer into potential issues. Unless you are purchasing from sellers who have taken the precautions and will stand behind their refund policies, ensuring your safety and theirs, you take a risk.

I've fucked up, mistakes happen. I issued a 100% refund or something similar to ensure the buyers were satisfied. Unless the seller specifies this, you take that risk. But again, I would never support a 50/50 down the middle. I know other similar sellers on here who would not be thrilled as well.

In every situation where there has been an issue, an admin has been involved to verify the outcome be either A) mutual or B) In the buyers favor. Whether @Redbot himself, or @Coinstop

*This is also my own personal experience.
 
The person buying the account knows that they're taking a risk. If the account is banned shortly after, it's the fault of both parties for not being careful enough. The person selling the account should get a negative review, and the buyer should lose his money. That's the only logical way to handle this kind of transaction.

You set up a trade medium here for people to buy and sell from each other. Both parties are responsible for idiotic mistakes, not ectunnel.
 
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From my personal observations, account transactions are one of the riskiest rmt that go on and is actively sought out by daybreak(liability issues). I think people should be made more aware of this in the 'EverQuest Account Buyer's Guide' and be told to not expect their money back if banned post-sale.
 
The person buying the account knows that they're taking a risk. If the account is banned shortly after, it's the fault of both parties for not being careful enough. The person selling the account should get a negative review, and the buyer should lose his money. That's the only logical way to handle this kind of transaction.

How is it logical for a seller to receive negative feedback based on a buyers mistake if thats the case?
 
I have sold over 6 accounts in the past year and never had an issue with any of the accounts being banned, what exactly is happening? it surely can't just be because of an ip change right?
 
How is it logical for a seller to receive negative feedback based on a buyers mistake if thats the case?

Because that's the whole reason why there's a case. It's not just the sellers fault, it's potentially the buyers, or vice-versa. Unless either one took precautions to stop this from happening (aka evidence), anyone would would be biased to take a standpoint on either side.

How could it be the buyers fault for the account getting banned shortly after purchased, unless they purposely flamed general chat?

What are we going to do here, take it to trial? Let's elect ectunnel to start a judicial system.

ISO donations
 
I mean i've had experience with this type of thing(and received negative feedback because the person said I was 'Working with the GM) I myself gave him a full refund and did what I could to fix it, as it just seemed like the right thing to do. But yet I still have that negative feedback. In the long term it has made me more cautious as to who I sell to and what I sell, I also talk more about the transaction and try and make sure they understand the risks.

Selling on P99 for example I have had maybe 2 out of 10 transactions not cause massive issues so I just completely avoid it.

Accounts in particular have always had issues tied to them for things like this, when I powerlevel a fresh account or just get paid to powerlevel in general I almost always offer to use a VPN that is close to their home so that it looks at least somewhat legitimate.

I have never had or heard of an account i've powerleveled being banned or even suspended, and I don't exactly hide what I do (auctioning powerlevels in game and such) so I'm not sure if it's some new policy or what, but having done something like 60-70 different account powerlevels and maybe 15 account sales I have never had an issue, so I can't really speak to that.

If anything I'd hope if the same person has this repeated issue that person specifically is looked into, but otherwise I'm not really sure how to fix or make it safer. Buying accounts has always seemed like the highest risk in my opinion.
 
The problem is buyers don't know how to secure their new accounts properly.

Things a buyer can do if buying a clean account:

Change password
Set SQA
Change email
New IP

If they do any combination of those things (not all, even 2/4), the account gets flagged. So they buy the account, log in under what is now a new IP and think "oh boy better change the PW" and boom, this could be a ban. Nothing at all related to the seller.

The wise choice, for buyers, would be to purchase the account, and trust who you're buying from. A few weeks later, change the password. Doing too much too soon triggers account flags, and the seller has no control over the buyers irresponsible actions. A 50/50 split seems like a terrible idea for sellers and could lead to improper punishment due to ignorance on the buyers end.
 
I’m in the category of leave it alone. I think 50/50 would result in almost no sales or a lot of scams. As long as the description is accurate I think that is what matters most.

I have acquired accounts that were as safe as can be and some that were high risk. I paid appropriately based on the situation. Not original creator? High risk and good chance of being banned, imo. But that means lower prices so maybe it is worth the risk. If banned I know it was a chance I took.

I don’t even think negative feedback should be allowed in cases where risk was explained beforehand and there is proof. But feedback is another issue I would like to discuss in another thread.
 
The problem is buyers don't know how to secure their new accounts properly.

Things a buyer can do if buying a clean account:

Change password
Set SQA
Change email
New IP

If they do any combination of those things (not all, even 2/4), the account gets flagged.

There are a few of us sellers on here who know how to get around DBG's "flags", @kronolevel being 1 of them, and we offer safe accounts that any information can be changed at the second of purchase, without any issues at all. You can confirm this with many of my customers and most likely his.

The wise choice, for buyers, would be to purchase the account, and trust who you're buying from. A few weeks later, change the password. Doing too much too soon triggers account flags,

If it is a "safe and clean" account, it does not matter whether you wait, 5 minutes, a day, or a week. If the seller did not take all necessary precautions, the account is at potential risk of being compromised. If the seller knows what he or she is doing, then there is no issues with sales. Plain and simple.

Unfortunately aside from what we as the valid sellers discuss in pm's in regards to how to go about things safely, we have also agreed that releasing that information to the community would just compromise everything.
 
So none of your accounts will ever be banned? No matter how careful you are there is always a chance it will be caught. You may know how to get around it now but im sure they will catch on eventually. Then what do u do? So yea buyer and seller should 50/50 if it happens within a few days. Just my opinion. Either way we all cheating eq so its part of the deal. Why I won’t ever buy accounts. Too much risk cause im not believing you just cause you say they won’t find out lol. Sure track record blah blah but alot of people have had track records and bam shit gets banned.
 
You are absolutely correct, however that is why we offer refunds, and you can date back months to a few years now with feedback of people vouching of having no issues. Admins can verify themselves, those who have run into issues, because as you said it does happen, even after a month it has been straightened out in the buyers favor :) That in itself speaks for something. We ate around 50 -100 krono testing accounts and getting them banned strictly so we knew how and what they were checking.
 
Yea I understand completely also. You know the risks u take buying and selling accounts :) i will stick to kronos haha
 
Another subject related to this issue is the price. If a buyer wants to have a high level toon on Coirnav, for example, there are basically 4 options ranging from least risky (1) to most risky (4) IMO.

(1) Buy a high level toon (typically a “clean” PLed account) from a reputable seller
(2) Have a reputable seller/PLer PL your existing toon to a high level
(3) Buy a high level toon from a seller who claims is the original owner
(4) Buy a high level toon from a seller who is not the original owner

While obviously (1) and (2) are much better options than (3) and (4), the cost will be significantly higher, sometimes even double, especially for a level 60 toon. Now if the prices of (1) and (2) are more competitive to (3) or (4), then the ban volume would likely decrease as the risk of buying a (3) or (4) would not be worth it. However, as reputable sellers and PLers are often doing this as a
side business or as a dedicated hobby, they are not willing to offer their toons or PL services at lower prices. Not everyone can afford or is willing to pay $400-$500 for a high level "clean account", therefore many buyers are willing to take a higher risk on a (3) or even a (4) level 60 toon for $200.

Also if you bought a (1) and decides to sell the account later after you get bored, the account will become a (3) and will likely sell for a lot less than what you paid for. However, if you bought a (4) that was not banned, you can resell it as a (4) without taking a price hit.
 
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I agree with NWtrader in that it comes down to risk. If a person is willing to accept the higher risk for a cheaper price, then it is on them. However, if an account is advertised as one thing and then clearly isn’t, there is a problem. An example of this is gear, spells, faction, or whatever.

I still think a 50% refund is a bad idea. If description is accurate it is very much a case of buyer beware. There is a reason some people get verified. Also, sometimes sellers do dumb things but often buyers do too.

In the end it is a case of risk vs reward.
 
If an account is banned after the transaction there should not be a required refund. RMT is a clear risk and the seller of the account generally has more in to the account than half of the refund anyways.

For example an account with 3 krono's used, and 1 expansion purchase with a heroic character is roughly 80$ on the cheap side. Accounts are struggling to sell for 200$ and thats being maxed out so if you were to sell it for 150 (which I've been doing with max aa ros accounts) and I am required to give half a refund, I actually lose money.

Again, RMT is a risk and Daybreak has suspended people for account sales. Lets refer to the car lot example, once you drive off of it, you're 100% at risk for any issues.
 
There are a few of us sellers on here who know how to get around DBG's "flags", @kronolevel being 1 of them, and we offer safe accounts that any information can be changed at the second of purchase, without any issues at all. You can confirm this with many of my customers and most likely his.

If it is a "safe and clean" account, it does not matter whether you wait, 5 minutes, a day, or a week. If the seller did not take all necessary precautions, the account is at potential risk of being compromised. If the seller knows what he or she is doing, then there is no issues with sales. Plain and simple.

Unfortunately aside from what we as the valid sellers discuss in pm's in regards to how to go about things safely, we have also agreed that releasing that information to the community would just compromise everything.

Oh I'm well aware there are plenty of ways around this, I've done plenty of trial accounts to see which methods are secure and which aren't. My post was targeted towards the majority of purchases here which are independent sellers, not people doing it professionally. With the right precautions from a quality seller you can purchase and instantly take ownership. The problem is most people selling accounts haven't taken the necessary steps to insure instantly changing all the information won't be an issue. I've had multiple accounts exchanged with no issues over changing information. That doesn't mean it's safe for everyone, though.
 
I mean i've had experience with this type of thing(and received negative feedback because the person said I was 'Working with the GM) I myself gave him a full refund and did what I could to fix it, as it just seemed like the right thing to do. But yet I still have that negative feedback. In the long term it has made me more cautious as to who I sell to and what I sell, I also talk more about the transaction and try and make sure they understand the risks.

Selling on P99 for example I have had maybe 2 out of 10 transactions not cause massive issues so I just completely avoid it.

Accounts in particular have always had issues tied to them for things like this, when I powerlevel a fresh account or just get paid to powerlevel in general I almost always offer to use a VPN that is close to their home so that it looks at least somewhat legitimate.

I have never had or heard of an account i've powerleveled being banned or even suspended, and I don't exactly hide what I do (auctioning powerlevels in game and such) so I'm not sure if it's some new policy or what, but having done something like 60-70 different account powerlevels and maybe 15 account sales I have never had an issue, so I can't really speak to that.

If anything I'd hope if the same person has this repeated issue that person specifically is looked into, but otherwise I'm not really sure how to fix or make it safer. Buying accounts has always seemed like the highest risk in my opinion.

@cmorgan82 didn't we do that Shammy trade on P99? It eventually got banned because they said the account was RMTed and I never bothered cmorgan about it. If the account is banned later, I think the buyer takes the risk on that. But if it's banned within like 24 hours or some pretty quick period of time, then I could see the argument for a 50/50 refund
 
I was trying to avoid this thread because tbh it's not a healthy topic under the selling section but it keeps getting bumped... causing me anxiety and making my eyes bleed. I'm sorry to all the tin-foiled hats thinking they have a safe way to not get caught RMTing. Truth is you don't, maybe your way isn't AS obvious but it's still obvious. I have never purchased anything from Hustlin, I don't even play on his server, but I know who his crew is. I'm sure several sellers here know who my crew is. GM's aren't stupid... figuring out who is who is not difficult in anyway shape or form. I have sold a few accounts over the years and have yet to have 1 banned. I have purchased a handful of them over the years and have had 1 banned after a week of ownership. The person I purchased it from had a fine rep here and wasn't a major seller. He did something stupid that pissed off the wrong person which got it reported right before I purchased it. It was just bad timing/luck. GMs don't randomly go digging through accounts unless there is reason for them to do so. Respect the GM's don't assume they are clueless as to whats going on. RMT keeps EQ alive, simple at that. As long as sellers aren't getting out of hand, causing problems (Reports that GM's have respond to), I don't think there is much to worry about.

As far as refunding goes I think it depends on the account/seller. If I sell an account and ended up doing something stupid to flag myself which then caused someone to get banned soon after purchasing from me, I personally would refund them. Not every seller feels the same way, which is fine. If the account gets banned 3 months after the original purchase, sorry you're out of luck. Again it depends on the account/seller in question.
 
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Usually i stop selling eq accounts and start selling wow accounts 6 months after the latest tlp server launches and to this day i have never had any of the accounts banned. I ALWAYS give the owners full control over the email tied to the account and if people are buying 2nd hand accounts (accounts that have been sold over and over) that's their problem. I have never seen an account banned over 1 ip change, NEVER EVER, there's just no way daybreak could tell or care enough to ban said account unless the buyer is telling people he bought said account (telling your friends you bought an account in game is a fast way to get banned, once something is said in game it gets sent to the log files). Point is, if the owner isn't giving you the original email, password and SQA do not buy the account, period.

I don't want to be a dick but if this 50/50 policy change goes through, ill just sell my accounts on other sites like epicnpc or ownedcore.
 
@cmorgan82 didn't we do that Shammy trade on P99? It eventually got banned because they said the account was RMTed and I never bothered cmorgan about it. If the account is banned later, I think the buyer takes the risk on that. But if it's banned within like 24 hours or some pretty quick period of time, then I could see the argument for a 50/50 refund

We did, and I appreciate that. we took EVERY possible safety measure. However one guy I sold to (a small amount of 15k) went on a ballistic rampage and gave me negative feedback immediately because HE POSTED HIS OWN NAME ON HIS BUY THREAD. I reported it and still have the negative feedback. p99 is dangerous. PERIOD.
 

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